Interview on past and future for the Island

About Dinho’s occupation and educational/professional background.
I’m the head of the tourism operators association of the Island of Mozambique. My occupation is being an accounting technician but I’m trained in heritage management and historical heritage. I had this training in Norway and I was trained in studies on safeguarding and protecting cultural heritage.

About Amade’s occupation and educational/professional background.
I’m a computer technician. Right now I manage the multimedia center of the community center of the Island of Mozambique and I involves a telecentre and a local radio that has a range of 55 km. I also have a mini training in protecting and safeguarding cultural heritage and I’m an advocate for the tangible and intangible heritage here on the Island of Mozambique.

What is your connection with the Island of Mozambique?
Dinho – The Island of Mozambique is a city that is my hometown, first thing. So it has a big meaning to me because it is the land that saw me growing. Being this Island, listed by its history and classified as a World Heritage Site (WHS), so the island alone with its history has already a great significance and importance. For me, as a citizen, that knows the island before and after the independence day, and has someone who remembers things for those times…It has a great meaning to me. It is where I was born.

Amade – It is where I was born and raised. A place that I’m proud of. And that is a WHS. I’m proud of this and also of my contribution for the World Heritage Site classification to happen.

Can you tell more about that? The WHS process that took place.
Amade – When the Association of Island of Mozambique was created, one of the main goals was to inscribe the Island as a WHS in the UNESCO’s list. So we did a survey of historical monuments. Everything that had a cultural value, either intangible or tangible, until we were able to call the UNESCO’s commission so they could evaluate the value of the Island of Mozambique. They evaluated and we got inscribed on the list. But then, major responsibilities arose in the conservation and preservation and later, the safeguard of the Island’s heritage. They came to do their first evaluation after the Island was a WHS. They didn’t register any damages, bad conservation or bad preservation…nothing. Then they came to do the second evaluation and we had the same result. So we stayed relatively safe to keep ourselves in the WHS list. Because any anomaly detected we would mean we were outside the WHS list, until we corrected the situation. The reason why we are involved in the underwater heritage safeguarding, and why it is a concern of ours, is until the government of Mozambique rectify the convention. But they already accepted to sign it. All this was a fight of ours, together, to pressure the government until they reach a conclusion to sign the convention. And this is a great pride that I have. And I will not get tired of fighting for our heritage.

What is your opinion of UNESCO presence here on the Island, and its role?
Dinho – UNESCO has an important role. First, since 1991, the year of the classification of the Island of Mozambique as a WHS. Their other role is to do a follow up of the situation, is to supervise. It’s try to follow up with every place that becomes a WHS, to evaluate is the state of the situation is critical or not, if the cities are at risk or not, if they are being correctly preserved, using the right conservation materials, if they are traditional materials… Their role is to see if there is not a lot of deterioration of the authenticity. Because there are cities that are at risk because people made a lot of changes…All this related with the control and presence of the UNESCO. We feel their presence because they show up annually here and meetings are organized, and they do follow up although their actions here have been reduced. Before we had a UNESCO’s office here, we had a representation and now we don’t. The follow up it is not on a daily basis like it used to be. It was important to establish an office again so their presence had more impact on the Island of Mozambique.

Amade – They are much needed here. I agree with everything Dinho just mentioned, but I want to add some things. First, the community didn’t understand or knew what UNESCO’s role was. The community realized just thought that: the Island has ancient ruins; UNESCO has classified the Island as a WHS so UNESCO will rehabilitate the Island of Mozambique. So there was a work of sensitization, of communication and education to make the community understand what was UNESCO’s role. We did that through advertising spots and explanatory messages. All these took place in the form of radiophonic debates, in the form of thematic heritage programs in the local radio. Little by little we were able to get some results of this work. We didn’t stop the sensitization work how to conserve, what is UNESCO’s role in the preservation of heritage cities, not only the Island of Mozambique but in a worldwide perspective as well and the community started to understand. Today I can say that the majority of the people already understands all of this.

Dinho – returning a little just to complete. Even before the radio existed, this work of dissemination, of communication of what is a WHS, the community started receiving this messages and in the beginning, in the 90’s the messages were spread within the population though singing, stories... and that started this work.

You think the WHS classification changed the way people perceive the Island of Mozambique, or the way they interact with it?
Dinho – the classification of UNESCO didn’t changed anything. It came to solidify. Because if there was any change UNESCO probably didn’t want to classify the island. This mix of religions, races, and raiment all this elements were important to UNESCO distinguished the island. It’s the cultural reality that the Island has.

Amade – I agree. It didn’t changed the Island.

You think the classification as a WHS has brought benefits or not?
Amade – It has brought great benefits. It endowed the community with knowledge. We have to habilitate the men so he know how to work with that stone, as the saying goes. When I talk about the stone, what I really mean is the structure of the building for example.

Dinho - That is really the most important part. In fact, UNESCO's presence brought another dynamics, in terms of strategies of how to preserve, rescue some polities in terms of conservation. All of this to maintain the convention that was signed in the UNESCO, so we have a follow up of this extraordinary value that the Island of Mozambique has. We need to bring importance to that so that we don't escape from the rules that are implemented.

So The Association of the Friends of The Island of Mozambique was the great engine responsable for the process of classification for the WHS and education of the communities. Given this, how important are the local associations to dinamize the Island? What is their role?
Amade - There is a common role on every association here on the Island, their main goal that is increment the social and economic development of the Island. Then, naturally, every association has its unique goals, more activity especific, according to their main activity. In the case of the Association of the Friends of the Island of Mozambique, it was the only association that existed backthen. Now, more there are more associations of the Island. There was a decentralization within the Association of the Friends OTIOM. Within this one, several associations were born, and creating their specific goals. But all of them have the main goal of contributing for the development of the Island and protect, safeguard and preserve the heritage that is the Island.

Dinho - Not to disagree with Amade but from the different point of view of the different associations... I will give an example about a problem that bothers the fisherman may not bother the salt-work, and vice-versa, and may not be the same problem with the tourism managers. This means that every associations has its own partners. The association where I belong it’s the Association of the Tourism operators and Managers. Today there is a marriage between culture/heritage and tourism. In the Island itself the tourism that it is practiced is the cultural tourism that has several interests. When we talk about this association, has its partners and they are operators from the private sector that has nothing to do with the state. And all this people have different interests. Having all of this associations brings, in my point of view, an advantage that is, if somebody, form example, has a problem with their business in the Island and it is connected to tourism, your problem can be the same as another operator. If there is a union between us, we can join forces to solve the problem and arrange solutions, we can talk to the government. But, like Amade said, all of this association seek to help with the Island's development, and socialwellfare.

In general, do you think people are about the conservation of the Island of Mozambique?
Amade - In a certain way, yes. They worry because the awareness doesn't stop, it is permanent. The Island of Mozambique suffers a great oscillation of visitors. So it is needed that we, the residents, know how to make the visitor understand how to enjoy all his heritage. The reason why this education and awareness isn't only for the new visitors but also for the people of the community of the Island of Mozambique. Day after day, some people are born, they grow, and so, this work of awareness must be a constant and never stop. It is in this way that we are been able to bring this knowledge of protecting and safeguarding heritage to the communities, to the different levels of the community. We even thought the radio we do this kind of show, where we talk about this, in the local language, the macua, the most spoken language here on the Island. Because we are not only interested in the local islander habitant but also in the continental area, in the farthest places, where the radio reaches.  One day this people will come to the Island, and will already know all about the heritage landmarks, why it is a classified place... they will known by the time they come here. They will come informed and will check out everything they had been heard from the radio.

Dinho - The island of Mozambique, as Amade said, is full of monuments, and it is the only city that is classified as a WHS in Mozambique. This city was also the first capital of the country and was this Island that named the country and not the other way around. So, according to our history, these monuments don't only exist on the Island but also in the adjacent region. For example, in the Mossuril district it exists other monuments, there are Feitorias and other historical monuments, a well that Vasco da Gama was there and he reached this region, because the water was always an issue on the Island. The well is in Cabeceira Pequena. And even today, the population from there consumes that very same water would say that if the population is satisfied with the conservation...well, there are rules. To conserve there are rules to respect. If there is satisfaction from the population regarding this, yes there is. But, it is a bit complicated. I will give an example. When we are born, normally they buy me a tricycle. Then I grow, they buy me a bicycle, and my dream becomes of owning a motorcycle, and go on.... Here is the same thing. The "heritage houses" in the stone city...I don't know if you notice that the Island is divided in two: the stone city and the macuti part. People that live in the macuti area are very pour.  The rules of preservation of the macuti city... So the houses had these constructions of stones, dirt, and palm trees with macuti cover. Today those population, talking about the globalization, everyone wants an improved house, showing the success they have in life, they want to upgrade. So the evolution is to change that type of houses and give a better cover to them, with a zinc cover. Those trends also go to the building of the house itself, to the walls. They rather have a cement house. There is a challenge. We need to talk to this communities to preserve the house. So the awareness happens in a daily basis, everyday day working, being careful not to hurt the social fabric.

What is your opinion about the museums?
Dinho - We have the museum of the São Paulo Palace that reveals all the Portuguese mordomy and the colonial area, how the Portuguese lived here, according to the empire. That doesn't reveal the lives of the people that lived on the Island of Mozambique. It has nothing to do with it. It shows a lot of the history of the Portuguese here on the Island. There is also the religious art museum, the navy museum, we have another one on the continent...but none of them shows how the life of the Mozambicans was. We believe, according to this project, the SlaveWreck Project, through this partnerships that exist between the University Eduardo Mondlane and the George Washington University and the Afro-American Museum through the Smithsonian will bring another energy and dynamics to this. It was already identified the Slave's ramp there in the Mossuri area, so the slaves weren't only from the Island, but also caught in more interior zone, in the region of Tete, Zambezia, Cabo Delgado...So the Island was an commercial warehouse, so they were quartered in Mossuril, because of the long journey that they did and there they were arranged and brought to be sold on the island. From here, they were put on ships and exported. That process, with the partners I referred, as planned the inauguration of a Slave history museum. It will not only serve to show how the most sentimental part of the lives of the Mozambican people was. If someone asked for my opinion, I mean, it was a lot of suffering, during a lot of centuries, a lot of shredded blood, massacre. A lot of feeling because it would be our great-great-great grandfathers that would be here portrayed. That affection that they should had given and/or received, they couldn't because they were taken away. If they had stayed we wouldn't had the luxuries of the European technology but those affections are missing. It was only torture during centuries. This museum makes sense to exist because it will bring all the culture of the diaspora not only feeling but also all those connections because it is a lot of people in the Americas, especially in Brazil, in the USA, Cuba, and so on. Here, some boat were loss, there are the in Mauritius, Madagascar… all these islands had so many ships lost. Those islands were populated and founded but with people from the Island of Mozambique.This for me… it was good that we could have a museum, not from the slavers but the lives from the, not the slaves, but of the African people, but the Mozambicans mainly.

Amade – About the slavery…there is a very curious fact. Today we are here sitting on this balcony. We are drinking a beverage, a glass of water, having a meal…but we are sitting in a place where they used to sell slaves [interview taking place at the hotel Escondidinho]. I don’t know if you knew it.

Dinho – This was an ancient trading post [Feitoria], where they used to sell slaves.

Amade – In this balcony was were the buyers used to sit. And the slaves, here where is the pool, it used to be a cistern and it had its slab. So this used to be a stage where the slaves were profiled.

Dinho – They were released and they would throw a piece of bread. The idea was that the strongest slaves would show themselves. Here was one of those types of “houses”. You also have the Casa Girassol…we have a lot of them here. Your hotel is also one.

You think that exists some historical holiday, celebration day that had altered the original storyline, what really happened to reinforce the Mozambican identity.
Dinho – I think it is. There are dates that I don’t understand. Why do we celebrate, here on the Island, the date of the establishment of the Island as a city? It’s on 17^th September 1918. They say Nacala Porto it was on the 16^th, in Mossuril was on the…how did they come up with this dates? This for me is nonsense. I don’t believe in these one day differences. I don’t know where they are based on. The one from the Island there is an inscription on the building with that date. At least we have something in this case. And we have scriptures also, because it was the first one.

Amade – During the colonial time there was a special holiday on the Island of Mozambique, besides the national holidays from Portugal itself. But especially here they would celebrate the day of the discovery of the Island on 2^nd March 1498. The date of Vasco da Gama’s arrival on the Island. It was one of the dates that were celebrated. Back then we never knew about the 17^th of September. We just knew that date after the colonial era ended. We stopped celebrating the 2^nd of March and started celebrating the 17^th of September. It was a holiday that had more to do with the Island. The 2^nd March was the “discovery” controversy. He discovered or did he come to the island to visit? Because when he came there was already inhabitants here. Right? But that was in the discoveries era. Now we have that controversy of did he discovered or found it?

The Island of Mozambique was classified has a WHS in 1991. The Mozambican civil war ended in 1992. You think it was a coincidence or there was a reason for this two dates?
Amade – I don’t believe the two are related in that way because the civil war began in consequence of the disagreement between the leaders of two political groups. In which one of the parties didn’t agree with the only political party that existed that was FRELIMO. Reason why the political group RENAMO was formed and they started shooting each other.  And that didn’t affect nothing. After 1982, after the creation the Association of the Friends of the Island of Mozambique, founded with people from all over the country, the founder members. And in the meantime we were at war.

Dinho – We must see that the war only brought back the progress and the work that had been done. There was already a commission to restore the Island ready to begin the works.

Amade – Dr. Ricardo was the first person in charge of that office in 1973.

Dinho – So this caused a setback because the technicians that were already here on the Island in 1985 had to leave because the political and military situation was getting worse. It wasn’t safe anymore. So I think this caused a setback because the UNESCO should had classified the Island as a WHS already in the 80’s in 86/87. After the first report about the monuments and tangible heritage in the Island. The blue book, they made a blue book. That work, if there was no war, it would have already been recognized and the Island would be a WHS. I think the two are not related.

What do you think about the current state of the Hospital of the Island of Mozambique and the Fortress of San Sebastian [Fortaleza de São Sebastião]?
Dinho – There are both two historical buildings. And they are in a critical state regarding their conservation. My opinion about what the fates of the buildings should be is that they should separate the managing of the two buildings. I feel that they are “killing” one building for the other. They are killing the fortress for the museum. Like in the experience of other WHS cities, we should separate the fortress so that it has an independent management, apart from the museum because it only brings disadvantages for the fortress. I believe that the budgets the Government of Mozambique has for the museums, especially the Museum of the Island, that not being enough it always positive, can be reinforced. I would say that with or without the financial support a separated management should be created and then We should try to do the maximum we can and give another life to the fortress, not leaving it has it is. Even if they do a cleaning or if they paint or put a new door to reinforce the safety…after 1 or 2 months, the work is all gone because the fortress is in an abandonment state. Regarding the hospital, we should notice one thing. I’m not an architect but I’ve worked on a project and I was a city Councillor and a pioneer. I was a city Councillor for the area of construction and heritage. People talked already back then that the hospital structures are made of stone and lime and that the medicines will not adapted to those conditions…reasons that for me are absurd excuses. We have architects, we have those traditional materials that were used on the construction of the hospital. Why not use the same materials, restore and that’s it? Today there are specific rules for the construction of infrastructure for the Health Ministry, because of the equipment, humidity, it’s very delicate. We, talking about cutting-edge technology, we have fake walls with cast that I can isolate, not touching the original and existing wall, protecting them and creating good conditions for the operations room, to obey the rules that the Ministry has concerning these types of buildings. So abandoning the building…sometimes there are things that don’t need money to accomplishing things, to have a result.

Like Amade says, we must rehabilitate the man because as long we have people without knowledge we are going to keep messing it up, so we have to must stop people with that kind of conscience. For now we should made understand to every worker, every technician that the Island has particularities, a specific status, it has all these factors, because if we don’t give these the importance they need of course people don’t know, or saw it. They don’t know how things were made. So we must educate people to know how to use the materials and obey rules. I believe that part of the stone used in the constructions would come on boats but a large majority of the materials were taken from the island and from the continent. We should to allocate the resources that are unique to our heritage and this Island.

Amade – All is said.

On the Island of Mozambique can we talk about the existence of communities or a community?
Amade – Well, it is relative. Communities as in it can exist community X and community Y. I can give the example that exists the Muslim community and the Christian community, and the Hindu community, with only one person now, a resident. They have one important temple here and they do a big ceremony here.

Dinho – Hindus came from all over the world. It was declared by the Hindus for a particularity that this temple has. In other temples, they are a type of stone that is placed. But those ones aren’t placed by no one. They were born there, so that brought another dynamics to the place. Management was implemented in the temple. So annually a lot of Hindus from across the world come here to celebrate a mass.

Amade – Yes, but back to the question. I work since a long time in the community area. We always used the term “community” given that community includes all the social and cultural levels. I’m not, when I work with the community, going to discriminate, reason why we use the term community. When I speak on the radio I’m not talking only to the Catholics, not only to the Muslim, not only to the Hindus. I’m talking to everybody. To all of the community.

Dinho – If we want we can separate ourselves in numerous ways, in ethnicity, in men and women biologically speaking…but community, we are just one.

Amade – From all these organized groups that constitute a community I can exemplify with the existence of the associations. Each one has its members but they are part of the community of the Island of Mozambique. The community of the religious groups also belongs to the community of the Island of Mozambique, reason why we treat ourselves like this. The community includes the island itself and the continental area.

What do you consider to be your heritage?
Amade – All this flux. All of these cultural and traditional value that exists in this land that saw me growing.

Dinho – I would say that the Island of Mozambique is everyone’s heritage. But I would say that is MY personal heritage. I am from the Island. I was born here, this is my Island. It belongs to everybody. Talking about the monuments, talking about the beaches, the museums, and the tangible and intangible heritage is talking about my habits and traditions from the Island. I feel the Island is my heritage.

Do you have anything more to add, or a story that you would like to share?
Amade – I don’t have anything.

Dinho – I would say something. That the research work here on the Island is appearing. But the work of planning is taking a lot of years. They are all on paper. We want action. Realistic plans. We want work. We need that people don’t stop with the research and work. He only talks about the history of the Portuguese people. But when they arrived they found the Arabs there.  Where did the Arabs go? They went away because they didn’t feel safe given the militarist posture of the Portuguese when they arrived. They didn’t feel comfortable and they start leaving the island. Where did they go? He should start looking where they went. In the continental area. Search for evidence. Because for me, they are the ones that discovered the Island. How did they live, how they did do things, and how they faced the afterlife for me they were the ones to discover the Island? There is a lot of things and I would like to make an appeal, because all of the Island is what needs to be preserved. We need archaeological research because this Island is a mystery. As you may know, from the shipwrecks, the construction of this fortress, from Oriental Africa this is the biggest fortress in the area. The church of the Nossa Senhora do Baluarte was also the first church of this part of Africa. The lighthouse was the first one built. So they are a lot of elements in this Island that should be respect. If we had support or volunteers that could come from the private sector… I’m talking institutions like UNESCO, either NGO’s or companies related to this area of preservation and restoration…The Island needs to be restored because not only has visible structures on land as also in the bottom of the ocean. And there is also the natural heritage that the Island has, the reefs, the species, and the turtles…so we need specific protection on the Island of Mozambique for all of these things.